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Epic Armageddon Thread (duplicate from old forums)



The main purpose of this thread is to provide somewhere for people to discuss lists, sort out games and generally chat about the game. I also want it to be a place where we can discuss and agree on tweaks and changes that we would (as a club) like to see happen to the game.

First up I'd like to say thanks to Chris for the game last night, it was really run testing out the Imperial knights force and whilst it has to be acknowledged you did make some pretty terrible tactical decisions and the dice were a bit cruel at times we certainly got to see the knights do well. It was in part because of this game that I'd like to bring up the first suggestion we had for game changes to test out.

First one is a general terrain rule: Rivers.

Rivers count as dangerous terrain to infantry and vehicles with no effect on War engines. Infantry get a 6+ cover save for being in a river.

This change is simply a common sense one to make tables with rivers more playable and less dependent on having multiple bridges and fords along it's length.

Second change is one I talked quite a bit with Chris about and is the first example of play testing a house rule for the sake trying to better reflect the background and character of the unit on the table. This change is something that seems to have been discussed a few times but never quite made it to play-testing.

Land raiders become damage capacity 2. (Technically this would also make them war engines but for terrain purposes at least they will stay vehicles.) This makes them significantly sturdier and better in firefights as well as helping make them a lot harder to break. Initially I want to keep their price the same as one of the problems currently is that they are over-costed for what they bring and this doesn't do that much to change their basic board presence. This change applies to all land raiders and their relatives across all the factions that use them. (So all space marine and chaos space marine forces will get the benefit of this.)



Yep, I was playing like a complete muppet on Tues! I'm blaming a busy day at work followed by food comma during deployment ! 🙂

As discussed, i think this is a great idea. We should start with the Landraiders right away and i thought your version of the assault temeinators seemed reasonable as well.

I will try to put a list together soon of thoughts i have wanted to try out for a while - from the subtle to the extreme! and see which we think is worth trying out.



Yes, we both agree that mistakes were made. Many, many mistakes.

I would like to trial a number of things but think it best if we introduce changes one at a time and give them a few games to test out before adding others. I also want to see both the terminator change and the ones we discussed about regular marines (and chaos marines as well to be honest) but would like see the impact of each by itself to ensure we get a fair appraisal of its impact on the game. Multiple changes can have cascading effects and it can be very difficult when trialling lots of things at once to see which was more or less impactful than the others.

Hopefully once Ian gets back and if both Pauls are keen we ought to be able to see one club game of epic almost every week depending on interest.

Regarding the land raider change, I'm already writing up Dark angel lists to give them a trial.



Agreed, I think that even came up as a suggestion when we started brainstorming about a homebrew DA list. Treat Land Raiders as DC2 War Engines for everything but terrain and it allows all sorts of fluffy things like Land Raiders barging infantry out of the way in an assault, before the Terminators or other transported units get out and join in.


Ahead of our Dark angels vs Imperial knights game Chris, did you want to use your own scenery or the clubs? I'll set up a 6x4 table for us using either the red earth board or the grey lino matt.

I'm still dithering over the exact list but my aim is to have at least a formation of land raiders in the list.


Hi Richard,
Sorry only just seen this. I should be bringing plenty of terrain tomorrow, but feel free to set up and we can add a few roads and buildings to finish it off when i get there. By the way, i was planning to bring guard and try out the 2x battle cannon shots currently being trialed on taccoms if thats ok? But i will bring the knights too.



No worries about what to field. If you want to field the guard instead to try something out the feel free. Although I don't follow the taccoms forum particularly (I take a look occasionally) so you'll have to tell me what you mean.

Keen to see what our land raider change does to them honestly.


Cool. The BB change is simply to give them 2x AP/AT 3+ to try and bring them some parity to Shadowswords. Unconvinced myself, but worth giving a go. I should be there by 6.30.


Thanks for the game Chris, the game was a wonderful mess. I really need to bubblewrap terminators better but it seems that I've more luck passing invulnerable saves than re-enforced ones. (Why I do not know but the ravenwing were definitely a lot tougher than the terminators in that game.)

The change to the baneblade cannons may have been an improvement to them but I don't think it made enough of the difference. Shadowswords still seem the default choice considering the value of their (usually) very reliably main gun. I don't know what change would make most sense though as the only other point of reference I have for a comparable war engine are Ian's death guard versions which are a completely different kettle of fish. (Quick question by the way were you using the UKepic steel legion or the NetEA list?)

As for our other play-test model, the land raiders were definitely better, luck played more than a small part in it as the shadowswords took two hits to kill one land raider but it definitely highlighted the impact of what we were trying to change. The separate formation of raiders didn't get attacked at all, was that because they weren't that threatening or simply because you wanted to attack more efficient targets?


Yeah, good game. Given my luck by seeing off both terminator units for no loss *should* have resulted in a better result. But as always with guard, i struggle to get moving forward without the units getting clipped off one by one. In retrospect i probably should have puhed forward with my sup-com unit on the left, but alas...

Land raiders seemed good. I have a concern that FF 4+ might make a formation of them a bit good - 8x4+ with RA !! But otherwise emthey seemed fine.

Banebaldes are a tricky one. Im trying to feed into the thread on taccoms to at least get some improvement, but i agree, they need a bit more umph imho. I still like the idea of infiltrate representing a rolling assault (they are supposed to be the line breaker tank in the fluff)... but a bit too radical for taccoms i think 🙂



We can play more games and see whether or not we find the land raiders prove too effective and/or resilient in firefights but it's worth waiting to see how it pans out before meddling further.

To make the comparison within the same army, land raiders are the same cost as terminators. With our change they are much harder to shift now thanks to the DC2 but it's only after this change that the land raiders achieve similar volume of attacks in engagements. The terminators are 3+/3+ with 4 attacks in firefights but 8 in CC with half of them being MW attacks. The land raiders are in general better outside or engagements due to speed and range but their guns are split into just AT and AP guns with vastly better anti-tank firepower than infantry whereas the terminators are equally able to tackle tanks and infantry with a respectable number of shots.

Our game proved that the change makes the land raiders much more durable, which was our intention but it's only one game and as you say, we need to see how them impact things elsewhere.

Coming back to the baneblades. The extra firepower helps a little and should probably stay. If the background has them as more of a linebreaker formation then making them more effective at engaging would help. I'm not sure I like giving them infiltrate as that makes them a very different type of formation. I'd prefer to make them more mobile generally by upping their speed to 20cm which would extend their engage threat slightly but more importantly would let them get around the table faster and encourage people to lead advances with them as well.

Our game did demonstrate how tough a full company of them is as I only broke them due to the crit blowing one up and them failing to rally the previous turn meaning the blast markers had built up. Strictly speaking I only managed to get 3 damage past your saves. Their slow speed and often limited application of their many weapons is in my view more of reason for their lack of appeal. Changing a units speed can have some impressive levels of impact as I discovered playing Ian whilst he was trialling the plague towers. (Those things are very different at SPD 20 vs SPD 15.)


Richard - might be of interest :

Basically a space marine ground ponder list. Bigger formations, more Armour, that kind of thing. Might be worth giving a go sometime?


It does look quite interesting. Bigger formations is definitely something I feel marines need. Certainly worth giving a go at some point.


Having finally picked up the 40k Death Guard codex, it's inspiring me to restart Epic Death Guard development.

I don't have big plans to add any new units as the Epic Blight Drones cover the Foetid Bloat-Drones, Contagion Engines cover the Plagueburst Crawler and almost all the infantry except Cultists are too fine-grained to be distinguishable in effect.

Mephitic Blight-Haulers would be new, but statwise they're close enough to Predators to probably ignore, even though I have some suitable proxies!



One of the army-wide rules for 40k Death Guard Troops choices is that they automatically outnumber anyone else when working out who holds an objective. Converting that into Epic rules, what do you think of this, added to the Implacable Advance army rule?

Existing rule: 'Implacable Advance. No units can March. All formations in the army receive a +1 modifier to their action test roll when attempting a Marshal action.'

Add: 'If an objective is being contested by both sides, it will be held by the Death Guard player unless the opponent has at least as many contesting units as the number of contesting Plague Marine and Plague Marine Havoc units.'

This really reinforces the grinding advance and refusal to give ground, and finally makes up for not being able to March. +1 to Marshal is nice, but it's won me a game once while not being able to March has lost me multiple games. :-/ It also adds some staying power to the force to make up for the slower vehicles - several players have said that they would prefer to go back to 'normal' vehicles with full speed and no INV save, or pay extra to have the INV save and keep full speed.

Note that units like Plague Marine Chosen or even other units within a Plague Marine Retinue are excluded, so it's just down to the basic troopers.


Alongside this, I'd probably be dropping the Nurgle's Rot rule, partly because I hardly ever remember it, and am also looking at tweaking some points costs, notably bumping the Chaos Spawn upgrade from 25pt each to 30pt each.



Death Guard 0.5.0 and changelog are up:

There's an EpicUK tourney up in Daventry on the 10th Feb, is anyone planning on going?

Between PAW and Bonescon in February I'm too busy. 🙁

Somewhat late but wanted to say thanks for the game to Jake and write up a brief summary and take aways from the game. For Jake here's my list in full.

Dark angel devastators with 2x land raiders and Librarian (450pts BTS)

Dark angel devastators without transports (250pts)

Deathwing terminators with Chaplain (400pts)

Thunderhawk (200pts)

Whirlwinds (300pts)

Nephilim (200pts)

Nephilim (200pts)


Take aways:

Jakes list lacked both air-defence and long range AP guns (exorcists aren't that long range but they at least bring good AT values) making the list required to be both aggressive and brazen in the face of superior firepower. Acts of faith can help a little and did get used in this game but wasn't impactful. In spite of a mostly one-side exchange as far as the dice and casualties were concerned, the scenario was very close right up until the end of turn 3 when the thunderhawk landed to claim Jake's blitz from the broken dominions. The gambles on delayed arrival of the deathwing till turn 2 and using 3 formations of aircraft paid off due to the mismatch of lists and the good fortune I had dealing with his AA.

We were using the Land raiders with the DC2 profile and it wasn't a factor in this game. Jake put only a single hunter shot into them which missed.

Cheers Richard; I will get around to writing and posting the battle report with the pictures I took eventually 😛

One day my Sisters will have vengeance for the two drubbings they've received at the hands of the Dark Angels!

The game against Chris's Iron warriors chaos marines versus the Dark angels had a lot of back & forth during the early stages of the game but a decisive collapse of the chaos centre left the Dark angels with the upper hand at the end.


This game saw more testing of the club house ruling for DC 2 land raiders and I was fielding 6 in this army, all of them transports. 2 for Devastators and 4 for Deathwing. It exposed and demonstrated the changes more potent consequences.

The game went for 4 rounds, by the end of which the chaos forces which had pushed up the centre suffered a collapse in the face of a sustained terminator + land raider assault and the accumulation of blasts which broke several formations. Whilst very few of the chaos formations were wiped out more than half were broken and compared to only 1 Dark angel formation. (Several were down to their last stand or two though.) Chris had won initiative the first two turns whilst I had gone first in the 3rd and 4th turns. The Land raiders played a very significant role in that.


1.) Their resilience is now very formidable. Chris bombarded the Deathwing's land raiders with battle cannons and macro weapon barrages to practically no effect. It was only during the second turn of shooting them that a land raider was destroyed. Although this was the intent of the change it's necessary to note how much this has changed them as a transport option because with DC2, even macro weapon barrages are very unlikely to destroy them (and anyone inside) on the first volley. It makes formations like terminators a lot more intimidating to tackle.

2.) Suppressing and breaking them is now much harder. The impact is a lot more potent and visible in space marine lists due to the "And they shall know no fear" special rule and combined with their greater longevity in the face of enemy fire the land raiders proved nigh-on impossible to break. After successive combats and focused fire the last land raider and the supreme commander terminator stand were unbroken despite 5 blast markers on the formation.

3.) Contribution to engagements. With DC 2 the land raiders get 2 attacks when engaging and with FF 4+ Chris and Ian have voiced concerns over whether this is too powerful. This game saw two significant engagements where terminators and their land raider transports assaulted first a chaos marine retinue with supreme commander and then some chaos defilers. In spite of the extra dice rolled the majority of the combat contribution came from the terminators of whom it is expected. However the land raiders did end up shielding them from some of the supporting fire from other formations near the combat and the DC2 becomes relevant here because of how hits are allocated. Another notable point is that Land raider now make the formation much bigger. The terminators and land raider transports count as 12 stands for outnumbering purposes and even whittled down to a fraction of their original size it still counted significantly.



I hope Chris will share his thoughts on the game as well but from my perspective I know that I liked and wanted the land raiders in the list. This may mean that they are slightly too powerful now due to the increased resilience, durability and how difficult they are to break. It was a surprise to see them unbroken in spite of all they and the terminators had gone through. Their presence tilted the game somewhat as Chris was (perhaps justly) paranoid of them and their cargoes, which meant they absorbed a lot of fire and attention from the chaos army. (So did the ravenwing speeders to be fair who proved just as stubborn as the land raiders.) In terms of actual damage both armies had suffered similar losses but the Dark angel formations stayed unbroken thanks to "And they shall know no fear" meaning Chris had to inflict a lot more blast markers and as previously mentioned, the land raiders proved an incredible sponge for those.



Good write up Richard.

For sure the LRs are a real presence at 2DC - as they should be. The (un)breaking issue is frustrating - but they are the elite of the elite (and 700 odd points of unit). Seems appropriet tbh. Compared to a krieg Co in gorgans (475pnts) they work in a similar way and for the points feel about right.

I think we need to try spamming them to settle the FF question. Lets give it a go sometime after bristol.

I think the other question is - do marines become too powerful with solid ground units and excellent air assaults? If so id have no problem banning terminators from THawks as a first stab at a solution.